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Guy Gordon (00:00.938)
Hello and welcome to another Facts Matter podcast presented by the Citizens Research Council of Michigan dedicated to the proposition that facts should drive policy, not politics. Today we take a look at a huge phenomenon in our culture right now and that is online sports betting. In 2018, the US Supreme Court overturned a law that prohibited states from engaging in online betting. And that opened the floodgates to 40 states
not only setting up shop but also getting a considerable amount of tax revenue now like any engagement like this there are problems and there are consequences affecting a small minority of people but though that small minority is concerning so today without scolding or without demonizing the online betting culture we want to take a step back and say six years into this phenomenon can we do a better job of preventing problem gaming
and also addressing it and treating it. We’re bringing in Carly Abramson, who’s research associate for health policy at the CRC. And you can find her paper at crcmish.org. Carly, hello. So let’s just set the stage here. How large is this multi-billion dollar business?
Karley Abramson (01:12.184)
Hi.
Karley Abramson (01:19.498)
It is huge and how much it has grown in such a short period of time considering it has only been legal in Michigan for the past six years. But in Michigan in particular, about half of all men between the ages of 18 and 49 have an online sports betting account. About 22 % of all Americans have one. So it is very, very common. It is something that is very culturally accepted and culturally embraced. Even if you aren’t a part of the online sports betting
culture, you probably are aware of it just because of how prevalent it is in sports. If you are at all interested in sports, you probably have some awareness of the sports betting industry. And for someone like me, I’m really not, you know, I’m not really in the sports universe, but I was even very aware of how pervasive this industry is. And so, like you said, most people
engage in this very responsibly. And, you know, it doesn’t lead to these huge issues, but there is a considerable minority of people for which this does negatively impact not only them in, you know, increasing rates of gambling addiction, but that has ripple effects on their families, on their communities. And so it’s a public health issue that is worth addressing, considering we’re so new. Yeah.
Guy Gordon (02:41.032)
well i was gonna ask you about that how is this how is this a health issue because somebody said okay i understand it’s there are social consequences here their financial consequences here for people that might get in over their heads how’s this fall under the heading of health policy
Karley Abramson (02:55.125)
Yeah, so in a couple of different ways. So first of all, there’s a lot of research that shows that gambling addiction functions very similarly to other types of addiction to substances. You know, there’s a lot of the same brain processes that happen with that dopamine feedback loop happen in the gambling participation. And so there’s a lot of research to show that those increased rates of addiction are very likely, especially considering
Guy Gordon (03:12.906)
Mm-hmm.
Karley Abramson (03:23.265)
the ease of access to online sports betting. It’s very different than how it used to be or how you kind of engage when you go to a casino or back in the olden days where you had to leave your house or go find somebody to participate in this. The ease of access to this kind of fuels how easily it can become addictive for people. So there’s that addiction piece, which then has its own ripple effects on
There’s a lot of data that shows what happens in certain communities when there’s a large percentage of people who have lost money on online sports bets, the increase in crime in that community, in violence, theft, both community violence and interpersonal violence. And so…
Guy Gordon (04:08.756)
Well, and let’s discuss that for a moment because that was the one I think that jumped out at me in your paper was that those gamblers that get into trouble, that they have a bad streak, they tend to take it out on their family or those closest to them, domestic partners.
Karley Abramson (04:13.74)
Yeah.
Karley Abramson (04:22.253)
Correct. And so those kind of ramifications of when you’re in trouble and there’s a lack of resources and there is also some indication that very few people who struggle with gambling seek out any resources or help for it. And so they’re kind of dealing with the struggle themselves. And so there are a lot of those ripple effects of how
They externalize the negative emotions that come with the loss and the stress from gambling laws.
Guy Gordon (04:58.236)
Right. So in this universe, this five billion dollar annual business in Michigan, do we know what percentage of participants get into trouble? And of those that we know, do we trust those numbers or because of the anonymity of it, because you’re doing it in the privacy with you and your smartphone? Do we believe the numbers or is there a presumption that it’s underreported?
Karley Abramson (05:08.673)
So, you
Karley Abramson (05:18.358)
Right.
Karley Abramson (05:24.653)
And there definitely is a presumption that it is underreported. It also depends on how we are diagnostically defining gambling addiction, because there are some people who don’t necessarily meet the diagnostic criteria for addiction, but are still engaging in some of those problematic behaviors that have those negative public health consequences. So I don’t have Michigan specific numbers, but nationally, it’s between, I think, five and 20 million.
Americans have a gambling problem. Now that’s just general. That’s beyond online sports betting. However, as we mentioned, the online sports betting is particularly vulnerable because of how easy it is to access. And, you know, for other reasons that we’ll probably talk about, there’s different features about online sports betting that make it very easy to continue to place bets. There’s no natural stopping point.
And so there are lots of different features that make it for people who have, who are vulnerable, that make it even a more vulnerable situation for them.
Guy Gordon (06:26.57)
You know, it’s interesting, the industry itself and lawmakers back in 2019 were very aware that there were going to be social, economic, perhaps law enforcement consequences to this. It’s why they mandated the disclaimer at the end of all the ads saying, you know, if you get into trouble, here’s the number to call. But it seemed like during that debate, there was a lot of focus on what the proper tax rate was.
rather than addressing a lot of these problems. think it’s very timely that we do this now. What is it about? One of the things that we’ve witnessed is the growth of prop bets, these little micro bets that are really fun and they’re kind of silly in some ways. It could be, you know, who’s going to miss more free throws from the line or double fault the most. It could be anything. And some of them are kind of ridiculous. Why are those considered
Karley Abramson (06:57.643)
Yeah, yeah.
Guy Gordon (07:22.052)
I’m gonna put this in quotes, hazardous.
Karley Abramson (07:24.853)
Right, so those potentially for a few reasons. One, like I mentioned, they’re endless. And so if you have kind of that addictive nature with the dopamine feedback loop of placing a bet, there’s really no end to the number of kind of those side bets that you can do. You can also stack them together. there are lots of different ways to really fuel and feed that dopamine feedback loop.
Guy Gordon (07:26.666)
Cough
Karley Abramson (07:53.002)
And so their existence of them themselves can be a little bit, quote unquote, hazardous. But there’s also other features about, you know, the use of AI and kind of suggested or recommended bets. And so that there’s always some kind of suggestion or lead or lore to place another bet based on something that is recommended to you. And so.
Other states have proposed trying to just limit those pieces of it, to try to limit the number of prop bets, to limit the use of AI in the recommended targeted bets, just to try to chip away at some of that, to create a few extra roadblocks or barriers for the people who are most vulnerable.
Guy Gordon (08:35.56)
we noticed that with the advent of debit cards there was kind of a disconnect people didn’t feel like they were spending money because they didn’t actually see the cash leaving their hands and we went to a cashless society we have the same problem with people that can charge their online betting account with their credit card
Karley Abramson (08:44.15)
Right.
Karley Abramson (08:54.549)
Yes, and that’s another policy area that we’ve seen other states discuss and a few other implement is restricting the use of credit cards in being able to place online bets. So not just credit cards, but just any kind of borrowed money. We’ve seen other states create regulations around that. So again, that’s another kind of small thing that you can add to limit at least how deeply someone could fall into debt that they’re not placing bets on borrowed money.
Guy Gordon (09:07.881)
Mm-hmm.
Karley Abramson (09:24.327)
is another one of those policy areas that is something that Michigan could consider to help curb the problem.
Guy Gordon (09:31.454)
and we should point out some of the online gaming proprietors have already done this and they i mean they tried to act responsibly no different than casinos looking at people that come in that they can see are losing a lot though raise a yellow flag there do we see these online betting concerns also doing that to some extent or is it harder for them to do
Karley Abramson (09:46.306)
Right.
Karley Abramson (09:50.094)
I think it’s what harder to recognize, you know, in the the online universe is a little bit harder for the entity itself to kind of zero in on where the problem is. And then there’s also the question of incentives and, you know, there’s with how casinos are regulated, there’s a little bit of an incentive for casinos to kind of rein in some of that problematic behavior for their own protection, which
Guy Gordon (09:53.651)
Ahem.
Guy Gordon (10:19.272)
Right.
Karley Abramson (10:19.977)
is not necessarily as present in the online betting universe as well. So I don’t really know too much about how they are self-regulating, but as we know, the kind of the relationship between federal or government regulations and how the private industry then chooses to regulate themselves, there’s a link there.
Guy Gordon (10:39.132)
Okay, so we’ve seen other states limit the use of credit cards to fund the online accounts. We’ve seen them limit the number of prop bets. But also does the way we define this, and you kind of mentioned this a little bit earlier, but I want to make sure that we emphasize it, that we have an existing infrastructure here in our health system to address substance abuse. Should we use, I mean, there’s no need to reinvent the wheel here. Should we use that same kind of infrastructure
or maybe broaden definitions to include a gambling addiction.
Karley Abramson (11:12.821)
Yes, and that’s another piece. And it’s not that Michigan doesn’t have any resources for gambling addiction as is, but there are some areas in which gambling addiction is treated as separate from other types of substance abuse and other types of addictive behavior. And so there is, you know, there is a separate fund that is dedicated for gambling addiction, but making sure that those general resources that are available to anyone who struggles with addiction are also available for
Guy Gordon (11:35.935)
Mm-hmm.
Karley Abramson (11:42.562)
gambling addiction because as I’ve mentioned, they function very similarly. And so an example in the insurance industry is that through Obamacare, other types of substance abuse and addictive treatment is mandated to be covered. Gambling addiction is not included in that. lot of providers tend to get around this because gambling addiction co-occurs.
with other things that are covered, but making it so that state-run plans and Medicaid have to cover those types of services, considering the rise in the popularity and then the potential problems that we will see because of how accessible it is and how much it is just embedded in our whole culture.
Guy Gordon (12:32.532)
So in her new budget, Governor Whitmer has proposed a lot of sin taxes or vice taxes, if you will, an increase in the cigarette tax and things like that. And also is proposing an increase in the tax on online gaming. But do we know, she earmarked any of those dollars for treatment and prevention of those with gambling problems?
Karley Abramson (12:53.195)
We don’t know. As far as I know, the goal of that is to really raise money for Medicaid and to try to find pieces and pockets of the budget that you can raise toward Medicaid.
Guy Gordon (13:03.87)
Yeah, but it could also offset the Medicaid cost of providing these services to people who get into trouble.
Karley Abramson (13:08.457)
Exactly. And so I don’t know, I don’t think there’s been any statement about that. And we don’t we haven’t really come out to say whether or not we you know, we think it’s a good idea to do that. However, if that is going to happen, if there is going to be, you know, this new revenue, then it would make sense to earmark some of it for gambling prevention and treatment. And so to be able to use some of those funds.
specifically to target a problem that we know is going to continue to grow because of what we’ve seen in the past six years.
Guy Gordon (13:43.368)
It’s interesting, anecdotally I’ve been talking to some people about the podcast that we were going to do today. And I talked with one woman who, her daughter was involved with a young man. They were considering marriage, but she recognized that he had a problem with online sports betting, had to take a second job to feed that habit. And she ended up ending the relationship over it because, she saw the red flags. So the, the,
Karley Abramson (14:10.893)
Yeah.
Guy Gordon (14:13.042)
you know the more i’ve talked to people about this the more you realize how pervasive it’s become but also how many different consequences there are to this and we mentioned bankruptcies car loan defaults larceny’s and the the domestic violence speech which i said was really stuck out
Karley Abramson (14:24.237)
Absolutely, and yeah.
Karley Abramson (14:33.165)
Absolutely. And then beyond that, which is a little kind of outside the scope of public health, know, but the impact on sports integrity is also something that people care a lot about. And we’ve, you know, we have data to show the rise in harassment of athletes that has happened. And so there’s a lot of other these other ramifications that are making a certain number of people uncomfortable and kind of inclined to see
what else can we do to try to rein it in a little bit so that we can kind of curb some of these problematic branches?
Guy Gordon (15:10.346)
I point out that expand a little bit on the athlete harassment piece of this and how it’s happening because that’s really seems to be around the prop bet phenomena.
Karley Abramson (15:20.045)
Yeah, so some of it is that. So some of that is, and that’s a little bit different because then we’re talking more about kind of corruption and the sports integrity of athletes potentially participating. Right.
Guy Gordon (15:29.968)
Right. But I think still a lot of it’s important to a lot of us who, especially in college sports, who want to keep whatever purity is left in the integrity of the sport. That’s a, you know, a big concern.
Karley Abramson (15:41.865)
Right. So we talked about certain, you know, prop bets in terms of how someone pitches a baseball. And so there’s one piece of it where there’s the athlete participation potentially in a, you know, potentially corrupt way or just some kind of problematic way that changes kind of the nature of the game. And then there is this separate piece of harassment of
Guy Gordon (16:03.433)
right.
Karley Abramson (16:06.989)
just when athletes don’t perform the way that they were supposed to. And just the, again, that externalizing of those negative emotions that come with the devastating loss of losing a bet is then externalized to the community, to family, and to the athletes themselves.
Guy Gordon (16:27.528)
Right. So we have at least begun the conversation and it’s up to Michigan lawmakers and public health officials now to kind of step back and maybe ask some of these same questions. Again, we’re talking about a very slender proportion of those that participate in online gaming, but the ripples can be large and very concerning. Carly Abramson, thanks so much. And again, you can read Carly’s report at crcmish.org.
Karley Abramson (16:54.199)
Thank
Guy Gordon (16:55.176)
And we want to remind you that if you appreciate the research that the Citizens Research Council does, we are not funded by the government, we are not funded by lobbyists, we take no special interest money, we take donations from citizens just like you. So if you appreciate the notion that facts should drive policy, not politics, perhaps you should, visit crcmich.org and make a donation. Until next time for the Facts Matter Podcast in CRC, I’m Guy Gordon. Take care.
