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Guy Gordon (00:01.24)
Hello and welcome to another Facts Matter podcast brought to you by the Citizen Research Council of Michigan dedicated the idea that facts should drive policy, not politics. And today we continue in our series of looks at the proposed constitutional convention, something that comes up every number of years that voters must decide upon. If we choose to have a constitutional convention, what might it look like? We’ve had a look at articles one through four of the constitution. Today we tackle article five and joining us is the president,
of the Citizens Research Council, Eric Lufer. Eric, hello.
Eric Lupher (00:35.82)
We keep plugging along.
Guy Gordon (00:37.326)
And we got to number five, which is of course the executive branch. Something that we saw in 1963 was expanded considerably, the governor’s powers, but we should also point out this isn’t your, while your brain may instantly go to the governor, there are several other statewide offices that are addressed in this section.
Eric Lupher (00:56.793)
Yeah, if we go back and look at the analysis that the Citizens Research Council did of the 1908 Constitution for the 61 delegates as they were coming together, we have a flow chart of the responsibilities of the different departments and commissions and boards. And you can either use that to understand what state government looked like or why you’re your dishwasher. It is such a
a mess of lines and I can’t imagine how they understood who had what responsibilities and if the state were to take on something new, who to assign it to and how to get things done.
Guy Gordon (01:40.502)
You know, just pointing to the importance of the Citizens Research Council, at least we have that as a historical artifact, right?
Eric Lupher (01:49.571)
Right, right. And I think, you know, for somebody of our age, who’s only known the 63 Constitution in our adult lives, you sort of take it for granted that there will only be no more than 20 departments. And there’s some symmetry to it. And some of them do a lot of things, but there’s, it just seems so simple. And then to understand what life was like in an earlier time.
sometimes boggles the mind a little bit.
Guy Gordon (02:22.094)
But we should see Article 5 covers the AG’s office, Secretary of State, the Board of Ed, State appointment of the superintendent. It does a lot more than just establish the parameters of the governor’s office.
Eric Lupher (02:25.689)
Right.
Eric Lupher (02:36.29)
Right, it lays out all of those are considered executive branch offices. The governor has great authority over most of the departments, corrections and state police and so on. But the constitution provides for the independent election of our secretary of state and attorney general as as important and the key cogs in the wheel.
but independently elected and working with the rest of the administration to provide state services.
Guy Gordon (03:11.084)
We did see a fairly significant expansion of the governor’s powers, the power of appointment, the power to call special elections, things like that. Would, you know, as we look for fertile ground to plow and a constitutional convention, which by the way, you’re going to be asked to judge upon this come November 3rd, is it, do you think that reining in the governor is going to be something that will be an issue? And we should point out.
that this is the one article of the Constitution that has rarely come under any kind of an assault through the amendment process.
Eric Lupher (03:46.96)
Yeah, it hasn’t really been a target of amendment. And as we walk through the issues that we’ve identified in our newly published paper, you’ll see that even the issues we’ve identified sort of in comparison to some of the things we talked about in Article 1, the Declaration of Rights, and Article 2 in elections. And there’s a little more high impact
more controversial issues there. And here in the executive branch we see some cleanup can be done. And I think to your question delegates will probably focus on how to strengthen the checks and balances between branches that are key to the American system of government. That not necessarily weaken the executive branch or strengthen it.
Guy Gordon (04:34.915)
Mm-hmm.
Eric Lupher (04:44.133)
but make sure those checks and balances are working and we can walk through what some of that looks like.
Guy Gordon (04:51.31)
Well, let’s start with the executive reorganization power. We saw Rick Snyder kind of tear apart the environmental framework that was the Department of Natural Resources and reorganized into EGLE and other departments. That was a considerable reform of that process. Is that something that they will look at and say, you know, should one individual have that much power to totally rework a specific state function?
Eric Lupher (05:19.907)
Yeah, again, if we look back to the 1908 Constitution, we had so many departments and boards and commissions and so on. The 63 Constitution says we can have no more than 20. And it’s up to the governor. We have to have a Department of Correction or Transportation Treasury Office Attorney General Secretary of State, State Department.
So there’s certain things that we have to have, but of the 15 other available, it’s up to the governor to decide what each one should be doing and what we saw with natural resources and agriculture. Should they be independent? Should they be together? Over the last couple of governors, this covers now a couple of decades, we’ve seen
things packaged together and torn apart and move this way and that way. Governor Whitmer in her administration created, they call it LEAP, for learning and education for early childhood and sort of the pre-K through higher education continuum that other states have within their Department of Education. And we’re trying to package something together to push it.
To answer your question, right, I don’t think necessarily this is sort of what we want with an executive to think about how services are best provided. But again, it goes back to the checks and balances. We have a legislature that needs to have a say, needs to be monitoring those types of things. And should there be a more structured form of ratification, an opportunity for the legislature to weigh in?
Guy Gordon (07:16.194)
something beyond a veto
Eric Lupher (07:16.219)
asking to yeah right, asking you know tap the brakes on this and let’s talk about it or what that looks like.
Guy Gordon (07:25.038)
Okay, the one area where there actually may be some activity is this idea of filling legislative vacancies. We just saw a notable and I think compelling example of how you can see some political shenanigans with the governor dragging their feet in terms of appointing a replacement that might change the balance of power in the legislature.
Eric Lupher (07:54.073)
Yeah, we recognize that the governor is executive in charge of state government, but he or she is also a political actor. And we just went through the experience with State Senator Kristen Rivet McDonald running successfully to become a congresswoman. And that vacated
the Senate seat she was sitting in and Governor Whitmer took her dear sweet time calling for an election to fill that vacancy. a constitutional convention might try to put some teeth in that to say this should happen at the next election and Michigan election law has certain dates that elections shall be held.
we might look at different ways of filling that vacancy that removes the governor from the process. But the idea that people should be disenfranchised and lose their voice in the state Senate for a prolonged period of time because of these political, again, shenanigans, probably something that we don’t want to continue going forward.
Guy Gordon (09:14.126)
I think one of the powers that was expanded was the idea of governmental appointments. The appointment power under the 63 Constitution certainly expanded from what we had over the 1908 version. Do you see any reforms that need to be itched there or maybe an expansion of some sort of checks and balances, confirmation process?
Eric Lupher (09:39.388)
Again, I, you know, it’s hard to know exactly when you get 148 people in a room, you’ll certainly get a wide range of ideas. I would think looking at this issue that really leaning into the checks and balances is, is going to carry the day. Again, we have an executive, we elect a governor, we accept, expect him or her to have the ability to surround
themselves with quality people and you’re as good as the staff you lean on. So we don’t want to necessarily hamper that ability for them to best serve we the people. But there needs to be a strong system of checks and balances and again, allowing the legislature to plug in on that process and go forward.
Guy Gordon (10:40.184)
I’ve been trying to think of the state departments that may be causes for concern for some political actors. And I think of the resentment and the frustration over COVID-19 and COVID-19 restrictions through the Department of Health and Human Services and the shutdowns. you think, you know, some of those things were accomplished through spending cuts or, you know, executive action. That’s still a sore spot.
for some people, is that something that we may see separation or something like that? People want to build up a barricade of sorts against that level of intercession into our economy and things like that under the guise of an emergency.
Eric Lupher (11:34.288)
When I think about a constitution, state constitution or the federal constitution, we want it to be structured in a way to create the framework for government, but not so specific to tie the hands or be forward looking at the next pandemic that comes along or things like that. There are certainly opportunities, certain events that have happened that
Guy Gordon (11:49.39)
tie the hands. Yeah.
Eric Lupher (12:02.841)
raise awareness of the importance of who gets appointed to these offices and maybe a system to say the people don’t feel well represented with what’s going on. Right now it’s in the Department of Corrections with women dying in the women’s correctional facilities. And there’s been a long history of people identifying issues there.
Guy Gordon (12:24.824)
Mm-hmm.
Eric Lupher (12:32.731)
seat at the corner of 6 Mile and I-275 where I know very little, but it suggests, you know, are there things going on that are not getting the attention? We see it in the Department of State Police. There’s been issues with leadership from time to time. So different things pop up. You know, even at the federal level,
Guy Gordon (12:52.045)
Right.
Eric Lupher (13:02.661)
There isn’t a process for removal of department heads. So it’s really incumbent upon the governor, I think, if.
the departments are not running as well as needed, or if there’s things happening that people feel are contrary to their wishes to push the governor to replace that person or talk to him about changing the policy within the departments and going forward. I don’t know what we would do in a constitution to tie the hands of the governor or to
create a process for removal of department heads or other important positions.
Guy Gordon (13:58.414)
One of the things that we could be looking at as well is the, and I have apparently just had a total computer crash here, forgive me. We may have to do an edit here. It’s that my whole article five, I can punch it up here. Apologies.
Guy Gordon (14:26.816)
Okay. yeah. Okay. One interesting wrinkle, Eric, is that there is a line of succession and there are contingency plans to replace most statewide officers. But the lieutenant governor’s position is kind of an interesting wrinkle, isn’t it? Because the lieutenant governor appears simultaneously and jointly on the ballot with the governor.
Eric Lupher (14:52.591)
They do, and that’s really important that you want the governor and lieutenant governor to be in lockstep going forward. But we saw what happened in the late 60s when
Eric Lupher (15:11.719)
Governor Milliken became, you know, ascended from Lieutenant Governor to Governor and now there’s a vacancy and on the face of it, you know, people jokingly say the loneliest job in the world is Vice President of the United States. And I think we might say that about Lieutenant Governor and many of our states. But besides being the figurehead sitting and waiting, God forbid that something happens to the governor.
the Constitution and state laws vest responsibilities in that lieutenant governor in certain ways. And so if that office becomes vacant, there’s sort of trickle down effects on the functioning of state government. And, you know, probably an oversight of the 63 Constitution, but something that could be addressed by a new Constitution is a process for filling that vacancy. If
Guy Gordon (16:10.264)
Yeah.
Eric Lupher (16:11.011)
if that should become necessary.
Guy Gordon (16:15.128)
That would fall under, I guess, what you charitably call clean up or clean up an article five. yeah. Where, where, where that’s, that’s one that would be somewhat significant. Anything else at top of mind understanding that this, while significant may be the least fertile ground to plow given past history.
Eric Lupher (16:19.749)
Clean up right now.
Eric Lupher (16:39.395)
Yeah, there’s certainly issues. The executive branch has the article allows for certain things to happen and has some shortcomings that be can be cleaned up again. We probably wouldn’t use this article as the the tipping point on the argument of why we need a constitutional convention.
It’s a bigger question. If it’s necessary for other reasons, then let’s get into Article 5 and clean some things up and make it work better for all of the people of Michigan.
Guy Gordon (17:20.258)
All right. And while we’re at it, now that we’re through Article 5, at least somewhat of a midway point here, the importance of this and the reaction to this series has been quite encouraging.
Eric Lupher (17:35.609)
It is quite encouraging. This is my third time through the process of doing these. The question appears every 16 years on the ballot, so that might speak to my longevity and the Research Council more than anything. But it is clear that more people are aware of this question on the Constitution and really interested in what are the issues before us. So
We have heard from several people thanking us for doing this work and it’s a good civics lesson if nothing else to remind ourselves what’s in the state constitution and how that affects our everyday lives. So if people are reading these articles or consuming the information through these podcasts, we really would encourage you to let us know how you’re benefiting from it.
but maybe let us know by sending a buck or two to help us continue our operations and stay sustainable going forward.
Guy Gordon (18:34.53)
Yeah.
Guy Gordon (18:39.0)
Yeah, it’s it’s it is you do get a return on your investment in terms of level of comfort and information and confidence, especially as you approach this question that we have coming at us on November 3rd. Eric, thanks very much.
Eric Lupher (18:52.525)
It’s great to keep doing this and we have a few more to go, but we’ll get through it by the end of summer.
Guy Gordon (18:58.092)
Alright, very good. That will do it for the Facts Matter Podcast for Article 5 and of course you can find the other first four parts of this series at Spotify, Apple, wherever you find your podcast or on YouTube and do let friends know about it as well if you have found it useful. Until next time, I’m Guy Gordon. Take care.
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