Guy Gordon (00:00.558)
Hello and welcome to the Facts Matter Podcast. I’m Guy Gordon for the Citizens Research Council of Michigan. There is nothing, no skill, more foundational, more fundamental than reading and nowhere is it more critical than in third grade and the report card is in for the early reading scores for the state of Michigan and it is once again an ugly, ugly report card with Michigan scoring yet again.

in the bottom 10 of 50 states in America. And this is in spite of millions of dollars and a lot of effort being put into improving those scores. So what happened? Why are we so slow to improve? On the crcmish.org website right now, you’ll see the latest research from Craig Thiel, our research director who joins us this day on the Facts Matter podcast. Hello, Craig.

Good morning, Guy. Thanks for having me.

So we have been down this road before in Michigan and it is a fraught one. And I mean, this really started as a five alarm fire several years before the pandemic. The pandemic exacerbated it. And granted, we knew there was gonna be a reboot, but let’s explore first of all, just what happened. Give us the highlights on that report card.

Yeah, so Guy, the state has, as you noted, has been investing in early literacy before the pandemic. But the pandemic really kind of exacerbated and amplified the challenges that Michigan has in early grade reading. And the problem for our listeners, to make them aware, it’s a statewide problem. It’s across high income districts.

Craig Thiel (01:51.478)
low income districts and middle income districts. Students who don’t qualify for free lunch are challenged to hit the state’s benchmarks on third grade reading. And those students who come from economically disadvantaged backgrounds, low income backgrounds are also challenged. And this is a problem because as you point out, nationally we’re ranking down in the bottom on early literacy. But then when we look within our student

1.4 million students across the state. We’re seeing these large opportunity achievement gaps between students from high income households, middle income households, and their peers from low income households. So this is a policy challenge statewide. It’s particularly acute with our low income students. And again, those are the students that are already

far behind and if we’re not improving the proficiency rate in third grade reading for those students, it’s gonna set them up for a real challenging time as they progress through the grades and towards graduation. So third grade reading, a focus of state policy makers, both in terms of the policies that they’ve passed, but also funding. the issue I looked at was the

the stream of funding that flows to low income students. It’s called at risk funding. So the state supplements funding on a per student basis to help low income students hit academic benchmarks. One of the benchmarks

was about $1,000 per student extra, wasn’t it?

Craig Thiel (03:40.846)
It’s grown substantially. It used to be about $500 per kid about six years ago. And now on average statewide, it’s about $1,500 per kids. So the state is investing in low income students to help bring them up to meet those state benchmarks. And our

our research, looked at the funding and then the performance of at-risk students on third grade testing. And we found that about 40 % of our at-risk students are improving in their proficiency. About 60 % of districts are not improving the proficiency for at-risk students.

I had a good friend that was a judge and he was a circuit court judge, criminal court, and he looked at the universe of people that came through his door that were going to be sentenced for one crime or another and found an astonishingly high rate of illiteracy. So this isn’t just foundational. This is critical in terms of the arc of this person’s future. And they can end up costing you big time physically and financially in the future if we’re not careful here.

not to be too hyperbolic about this but it is that important

Yeah, and you know, the adage you’ll hear with early literacy is after third grade reading, you’re reading to learn. So up to third grade, you’re learning to read. we’re trying to, through classroom instruction, after class instruction, tutoring, we’re trying to get all students equipped so they have learned how to read. And then moving forward, they’re reading to learn. So reading to learn, whether it’s

Craig Thiel (05:31.286)
history, geometry, US history, or if they’re preparing themselves for a career in trade or something like that. Though these reading skills are foundational and they’re a prerequisite for a prosperous, fulfilling life.

So yeah, the incline that we all have in our lives gets significantly steeper if we have reading challenges. And those challenges, the demarcation point, the tipping point is at third grade. Just to recap on the MSTEP results, more than half of third grade students from higher income districts were proficient, 55%. Only 25.7 % of students from low income background scored proficient.

or advance. the gap between the haves and the have-nots appears to be widening, not shrinking in spite of the considerable investment in at-risk funding. I gotta ask, I mean the big question here is why? We have the program that screens for dyslexia early. We had I think $87 million on new reading programs, part of new

you know at risk funding and beyond that so what’s the problem

Well, while that state has put this as a high priority, I think their actions have kicked into high gear in the last couple of years. So 2024, the state passed a science of reading law that requires screenings, requires interventions, requires professional development training in the science of reading, all of these.

Craig Thiel (07:23.448)
That’s going to take some time to implement because these are all new programs. So while we would have loved to require our 800 and some school districts to implement it for this fall, the reality is these things take time. those efforts are put in place. They’re ramping up and won’t be fully implemented for a couple of years. But that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t expect to see some improvements. And I think it’s important to note there are some

areas of improvement across the state where districts are, you know, and maybe they were a little bit ahead of the curve in terms of getting their programs in place, getting the staff and resources in place.

But choice matters, doesn’t it, Craig? Curriculum choice matters a lot. I got to tell you, I was at a charity event with a longtime principal in Oakland County. And being, I guess, kind of a rude guest, I asked her about work. And I said, what do you think about this? Because look, if 45 % of the kids from the higher income bracket are not proficient or advanced, to me, that’s an indictment of the curriculum.

Yeah. So the curriculum is an issue that has been identified by the state. In fact, some researchers out at MSU did a survey to find out what exactly are school districts using for their K-3 curricula for reading. And the numbers were astounding just in terms of the difference of types of curricula. Some of them were evidence-based. Many were not.

The numbers came in in the hundreds. the state one of the approaches that the state Put to districts was we will buy science-based evidence-based curricula for you to Choose to use 500 districts of the 800 districts came to the state and said we’ll take you up on that so three

Guy Gordon (09:31.022)
Sandra didn’t!

Well, 300 did, but we don’t know if those were ones that were already using the evidence-based curricula. So again, your spot on curricula was a challenge. And this owes in large measure to the fact that we have a home rule, local control system for our schools. The state sets standards, benchmarks, but it does not tell districts how to teach to those standards or benchmarks. I would argue.

This is a step towards not the state mandating, but the state really nudging districts to use evidence-based, the science of reading curricula so they can address these challenges that, again, are statewide, across student demographics, high income, low income students are all challenged in hitting these state benchmarks.

Point well taken that many of these initiatives have only been around for a year, maybe two. we may be seeing, and we may already be seeing improvements. just, they haven’t been documented yet. So we’ll maybe get a brighter picture in the next assessment. But the other thing that I’ve heard is, is that this continues to be a moving target and that, you know, we have one mandate one year than another mandate. We change the assessment protocols.

from one year to the next. And to use the word that this principal used, we’ve been, she says, damned schizophrenic. And I think there’s a lot of educators that would say that. Let’s pick a road and at least stay on it.

Craig Thiel (11:13.263)
Yeah, third grade reading is an example here. Other areas of K-12 policy would provide examples of what we call policy churn, where state lawmakers, because they do have a role in setting the state law and dictating both how funding goes to school districts, but

what they’re supposed to do with that funding have been a little schizophrenic. from the local level, I’m sure administrators, teachers, and families kind of feel a little whipsawed in some of this. We had in the previous Snyder administration, the legislature passed a third grade reading law that had a retention component to it. you got held back. Yeah, and there was…

good cause exemptions provided in the law and opportunities that it wasn’t an automatic. But for those students who need an extra year of third grade reading, the law said, we’re gonna keep you in third grade and not allow you to progress to fourth grade so we can get this right. And that was on the books for about two years. And with the change in political wins in Lansing, that reform was done away with.

so there’s others examples of kind of that schizophrenic nature right

how many different curricula were out there for superintendents to choose from, the different curricula in use and that it’s shrunk dramatically. That was a really great fact point.

Craig Thiel (12:55.448)
Yeah, yeah, and this was the research out of Michigan State that kind of prompted lawmakers to put in the state budget for this year $87 million so districts can go out and buy curricula that has been proven to work. So there’s a list that districts are to choose from. They submit applications, and they can go and buy that. Now, that’s the curriculum. They still have to do the training of their.

classroom professionals. And so the state is also funding training in what’s called letters, English, and spelling, teacher professional development. And there’s been a large uptake on teachers voluntarily learning the new science of reading way of teaching. And the state hasn’t mandated that.

policymakers have called for, including the state superintendent most recently called for all teachers in the state being mandated to take this. We haven’t gone that far yet, but that’s possibly a next step here.

there is accountability questions. There’s accountability about whether districts are being held accountable, whether kids should or should not be held back, or whether the stigma of that undoes whatever good can be brought about. You do point out in your paper that there is research out there that shows for an additional $1,000 per pupil low income investment, if you do it for three consecutive years, and I found that interesting. So if there’s consistency,

that you do get results, that you get decreased suspensions and expulsions and a reduced likelihood of repeating a grade and you do get better scores. So all is not lost. The investment will yield dividends, but the study was very clear that you needed three years of consistency there.

Craig Thiel (14:55.862)
Right, right. And a lot of changing courses and changing directions in early literacy proficiency rates aren’t going to happen over time. They take sustained efforts, both at the state level, because the state controls the purse strings and the policy, but also at the local level. So that means consistency in the curricula that you’re providing.

students, the instruction, how teachers are trained to teach, and then allow that time to show that there is some benefit to this consistency kind of coherence across the state, local, classroom level.

You also cite some research and some opinions delivered by Education Trust Midwest, which I think is a very credible and reliable source of critique on this. And they talk about the lack of transparency and funding, that we don’t follow up on the dollars. We don’t audit to see if they actually go to and are spent effectively and responsibly.

Is that a legitimate complaint here that maybe we need better financial controls just to make sure again, we’re a home rule state. believe in local control of education. But since these are state tax dollars to make sure that they’re being used in an effective manner.

Yeah, and I would agree with the Ed Trust on this point here. The state does a really good job of identifying which districts are in need and the students that attend those districts, high need students, and targeting resources to those districts. So the state’s kind of doing its job in terms of targeting resources, but it hasn’t done a great job of then asking districts to report back to the state on how they’re using those resources.

Craig Thiel (17:02.882)
both at the district level, but most importantly, at the individual school and classroom level. So we could see as a researcher or as a parent or as a lawmaker in Lansing, are the dollars getting to the actual classrooms were the most need? And California ran into this problem a number of years ago and had to go back and rewrite several of its accountability, financial transparency regulations.

with regard to targeted funding, because this was kind of the case that’s playing out in Michigan, played out in California, the state invested large sums of money into high-need students, but then didn’t ask for the accountability, the reporting that’s required to then tell whether or not it’s making a difference. And without having that, really, policymakers are really a…

firing without making policy without a clear sense of where the problem is the most acute and where they can make the biggest inroads.

just I found it in my notes, but you told me that there were once 400 different curricula off the shelf that the districts were using. How many are there now to choose from?

Well, Department of Ed has listed if I don’t have the data in front of me, but it’s measured in the tens, probably less than 50 if I had to look.

Guy Gordon (18:39.502)
You told me 400 versus six. Now maybe I’ve got that wrong in my notes, but there are like now six approved programs that they feel are evidence-based and results-based selections that have worked rather than just this incredible, overwhelming menu. This is like the Cheesecake Factory of reading curricula, right? The menu is this thick. Yep.

Yeah, whether it’s 6 or 20, but it was 400. It’s much tighter now. again, the state hasn’t gone to the route of mandating districts to do this, but they’re nudging them in the direction of doing this.

Whether parents are demanding it or not, that would be another avenue to get districts to move on this, for them to ask the question, you using the materials that have been proven to help students like mine get to where the state wants them to be? And if not, why not? Education, whether it’s technology or.

paper, books, and there’s a lot to choose from in local schools in terms of how you’re going to teach students and what you’re going to teach them. The state has stepped in here and has kind of curated what’s been shown in the research to be effective and has really made it available to districts. And a lot of districts have taken the state up on this.

All right, so $1 billion spent on trying to address flagging reading scores. We now have only 25 % of low income students proficient. I say only 55 of higher income students because I think most parents in the well-to-do districts would expect a much better number than that. And that’s kind of the in a nutshell here. Anything else as a final takeaway? Craig Thiel, Research Director at the Citizens Research Council.

Craig Thiel (20:52.59)
So the CRC is going to stay on top of this because this is one of the K-12 education priorities, I think. We’re going to continue to monitor how districts are using the money, call for increased transparency and accountability for the use of at-risk dollars, and encourage the state policymakers

to kind of set the course, which they have, and really not deviate. I know we have an election coming up next year, and there’ll be a new bunch of lawmakers coming in. We’ll have a new governor. This should be one, if not the number one K-12 policy priority in Michigan.

should be a Marshall Plan. It should be a five alarm fire. I can’t think of anything more critical than that, Craig. And I guess the question then becomes how much time is reasonable to give these new programs to work before we re-examine them and say maybe they’re falling short? Because I do believe you make a good point. These are only a year old.

And Guy, you’ve touched on it a couple of times. You’re asking about timing. And I would point out, that’s one of the things that hasn’t been included in a number of the efforts is an evaluation component. you know, Michigan State University has been contracted by the Department of Ed to kind of follow the read by grade three law implementation. We need a similar type of evaluation tool for our

at-risk funding stream. And then whether or not that’s every two or three years for us to do a deep dive on it. Anything beyond that probably is going to be time not well spent. So tying funding policy to evaluation tools.

Craig Thiel (23:03.512)
We can report out to the public how these dollars are being used, how this policy is working.

The piece is really important as well. Alright, Craig Thiel, Research Director of the Citizens Research Council of Michigan. As always my friend, thank you very much and you can read Craig’s full piece at crcmich.org. There’s also some fascinating things about there on the at-risk index that’s being used to try to assess these students who need more help. We hope you’ve enjoyed the Citizens Research Council Facts Matter.

podcast. Going forward, if you have like-minded friends who want their information politics free, who believe that good policy should be driven by facts and not politics, then by all means, please subscribe to this podcast, hashtag facts matter at any of the platforms where you’d normally shop a podcast. And given recent events, I think the non-hyperbolic nature of these discussions, the less strident.

approach to this becomes even more and more important. Thanks again for joining us for the Citizens Research Council of Michigan. I’m Guy Gordon. Take care.

Citizens Research Council of Michigan has been providing lawmakers, academics, the media, business leaders, voters, and all Michiganders with factual, unbiased information concerning state and local government organization.

Guy Gordon (24:23.534)
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Guy Gordon (24:30.286)
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Craig Thiel (25:10.04)
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